One thing that I have noticed is that reducing volume and gain (just a bit) seems to help when recording.  It provides a more defined guitar tone.

As far as mic'ing technique, close micing (1 inch from the grill cloth) with the 57 would be my first choice.  Try pointing at the speaker cone at 90 degrees (dead on), just off center around the seam of the cone, and at the outer edge.  If none of those work, the try the edge of the cone with the mic pointed inward.  You may have to move it around quite a bit to find what you're looking for.  It may also be that you need to adjust your amp tone for recording, as what you think you hear in the room is the result of your ears naturally (defensively) compressing the sound, especially at high volume.

Once you find a decent close mic situation, then use one of the condencers as a room mic.  Some things to remember when using the condencer:

- check for phasing issues.  

- it will pick up the room, so your tone will be affected by the room your amp is in, as well as its location in the room.

Your particular mic can handle high SPL's, so you should be able to get it closer to the mic than 6 feet away without damaging it, try 2 or 3 feet.  This will take the room out of the picture more, too.  Your mic has two polar patterns, try each of them.  If you are getting a lot of midrange, you should consider situating the mic so that the amp is off axis, which should add a bit of bass, but will remove some mid and highs. 

I hope that I haven't clouded things up more, but there are so many variables that affect your situation, that you need to experiment to find what will work.

I know the tone you're talking about, and I also know the "fizz."  The fizz is the reason to take down the gain a bit, imo.

I would tend to shy away from recording two amps at once, primarily because of phase issues.  If you are tight (as a player) with yourself, then I would record two mono tracks and pan them.  Otherwise, I would record mono and process to stereo via whatever effects you may use (delay, reverb, etc.)

As for the distant mics, beyond three feet is fine.  Just remember that you are capturing the room with them, and that effects the sound you're getting.  The room has an effect beyond the natural reverb (t-60) of the room, it may also cause certain frequencies to stand out and others to be less prominent, thereby affecting the tone of the amp as heard by the mic. This may also explain the tone of the amp you hear through that miv.  As you get closer to the amp, the room has less effect.  The 2-3 feet was really a recommendation for the condenser as the sole mic in my previous post, as opposed to having a close mic and a distant mic.

As for EQ, I tend to reduce the low (300-500Hz for guitar) and highs (3-5K for guitar)a bit, especially for distorted guitar, and let it ride in the middle somewhere.  You have to be careful not to let it step on the vocal or keys if they are also involved.  Nice and vaque, I know, but it depends on the situation and what I'm hearing.

Interesting, your comment about processing to stereo.  I used to sum all the mics to one track that sounded good.  Then I would duplicate the track and nudge the new copy by about 10ms one way or the other and hard pan the tracks L & R.  I was warned against this practice by another engineer for "phase issues."

I don't really want to mult-track the guitars parts.  I like the one-guitar approach.  The modern, wall-o-guitars sound does not cut it for my music.

Your thoughts on EQ are great.  I find that I cut everything above about 7K and reduce the 4.5K to 5K range a bit to take the "chainsaw effect" out.  I never boost anythng on a guitar track.

I don't use the condenser as the sole mic.  I am aiming for the use of two to three mics per cabinet, mixing them to get "the" tone.

I would have thought that recording more than one amp at a time was more common, yet you don't do that.  Interesting.  What kind of phase issues are you talking about here?

Thanks again for the feedback.

If only one guitar track is used normally, how do artists like Eric Johnson get such a nice big stereo guitar sound?  His solos do not sound mono to me.

I was going to try the back to back cabinets idea.  I would close mic them, then use the condenser anywhere from your suggested 3 feet to further back for that bigger sound.

Have you ever used the duplicate & nudge concept to beef up the stereo image of a guitar or any other track?  I used to use it all the time but like I said, I was warned off of using it in fear of phase problems.  Either way, it seems that stereo imaging is the result of slightly out of phase signals reaching one ear before the other, right?

I'd like to chime in here, though I feel advice given so far has been pretty spot-on.

I'd like to add: I recommend using only one mic when recording guitars, especially when its something you're new at. As hard as it is to get good tone with one mic, using two can make the process even more difficult (because of issues like phase). If you have to use two mics, make sure you are flipping the polarity often to check your phase (if all but a bit of lower frequencies dissappear, you're alright, if you hear an exaggerrated upper-mid from this, you're out of phase).

Also, you mentioned you were recording a 5150 II - I have had experience with almost this entire line of amps in studio (5150, 5150 II, 6505, 6505+) - They are fizzy amps, period. You're going to spend a great deal of time trying to dial in a "fizzless" tone on these amps, and you may never succeed, even at moderate gain values. Most likely, it will take heavy tweaking before hand, ideal mic placement (1 mic), and a bit of post EQ to knock that fizz out of your sound. Just a heads up.

But, I assume you are recording digital, and the beauty of that is its free to do over and over - so by all means experiment. This is just what I've found easiest to work with. Its much easier for me to get an ideal tone out of one mic, one mic position, and one pre, then trying to tweak two or more of all of those to sound good  when combined. Now this doesn't work in every situation, but it covers 90% (in my experience).

Corey

ckreon wrote I'd like to chime in here, though I feel advice given so far has been pretty spot-on. I'd like to add: I recommend using only one mic when recording guitars, especially when its something you're new at. As hard as it is to get good tone with one mic, using two can make the process even more difficult (because of issues like phase). If you have to use two mics, make sure you are flipping the polarity often to check your phase (if all but a bit of lower frequencies dissappear, you're alright, if you hear an exaggerrated upper-mid from this, you're out of phase). Also, you mentioned you were recording a 5150 II - I have had experience with almost this entire line of amps in studio (5150, 5150 II, 6505, 6505+) - They are fizzy amps, period. You're going to spend a great deal of time trying to dial in a "fizzless" tone on these amps, and you may never succeed, even at moderate gain values. Most likely, it will take heavy tweaking before hand, ideal mic placement (1 mic), and a bit of post EQ to knock that fizz out of your sound. Just a heads up. But, I assume you are recording digital, and the beauty of that is its free to do over and over - so by all means experiment. This is just what I've found easiest to work with. Its much easier for me to get an ideal tone out of one mic, one mic position, and one pre, then trying to tweak two or more of all of those to sound good  when combined. Now this doesn't work in every situation, but it covers 90% (in my experience). Corey

Corey, thanks for the feedback.

Your comments about EQing out the fizz are spot on.  In my live rig I use a graphic EQ in the FX loop to roll off everything above about 6K to 7K.  This cleans up the fizz quite a bit before it reaches the power amp section and the speakers.  I set the presence control to 0 as well.  Presence controls sound like an icepick stuck in my ears.  The graphic EQ also serves to reduce a hump at about 2.5K and at about 400Hz.  I read an article on AmpTone.com about using EQ before and after the distortion phase on a hi-gain amp and it helped me sculpt the tone a lot.

Additionally, I clean up the recording by rolling off quite a bit of the highs.  I can't afford new amps right now and these do the job for the most part.  Like I said, I like the sound of the rig live

It's nice to hear your comments on the 5150 and its progeny.  When I first bought them, I thought I was losing my mind trying to get rid of a lot of the fizziness of these amps.

The problem with only using one mic is that I just cannot capture the big sound using only one mic up close.  I the tone starts to improve drastically with one dynamic mic at about 4" to 6" off the speaker midway between the cap and the rim.  Then, I mix in a condenser set several feet back and not directly in front of the cabinet.  What I am trying to avoid is panning each of these mics to get the stereo image.

If I read you guys right, ideally, what I should be trying to do is get the best tone from the mics I use as the basis for the one good guitar track.  Then let the mix engineer sweeten the tone and get the stereo image during mixdown using FX like delays and reverb.  Is that right?  I will not be mixing the project myself.  It's a big enough job just getting the tracking done right.

I will pay more attention to the phasing issues when I get back to the studio.

I will be posting the samples of the tone I am getting when I get back from the studio tomorrow.  Fortunately, I own the studio so it isn't costing me any money to tinker with the tone and I can ake my time.

Thanks for all the advice.  I am fishing for things to try and things that will save me time in the trial and error game.

A few points:

1. Copying a track and nudging it back in time is precisely the same thing as applying a digital delay to the source, except that if you use a delay, it's easier to work with.

2. I'm a huge Eric Johnson fan (at least, old school Eric, Electromagnets and early albums) and I have seen him live probably 20 times in tiny club settings, including sitting on the ground with my left knee on his pedalboard, so I'm intimately familiar with his amps and sound, FWIW.

3. I have no information as to how Eric tracks his guitars, but he plays a strat almost exclusively live and his lead rig is a Plexi, and I'm sure he tracks it loud just like he plays it live.  That guitar and amp is a signature sound, as is the unique way he uses the pick.

4. The key to his tone IMHO is pushing the power section of that Marshall extremely hard.  Live, he plays that thing so loud that sometimes it produces bizarre overtones.  One time I was sitting no more than ten feet directly in front of it, and he would hit power chords that were so loud they literally made me dizzy (note - I was stone cold sober).  So we're talking about a lot of power amp & speaker distortion, and a lot less preamp drive than most people think of when they think of distorted / lead guitar.  And I don't think there is a lot of distortion, either.  The amount of pick attack is a dead giveaway.

5. Note - I think of the lead sounds on Ah Via Musicom as being his signature lead sound.  That's a mono amp with a little delay, probably a pedal.  Not stereo or room miced at all as far as I can tell, though it might have some reverb added in the mix.  Eric has said that he didn't really think "Tones" was very indicative of his sound, and having seen him live so many times, I can say that live, AVM is a very accurate representation "classic Eric".

6. If I was to go for that sound, I'd probably use a 57, start close-miced, and then start backing off until the treble ("fizz" as you call it) rounded off.  Now, note that a Marshall Plexi set up for lots of power amp gain and not a whole lot of preamp push will not have much fizz at all, so that may be an indicator of an improper approach to achieving this tone.

7. Also note that Eric's lead sound is really not very "big" in the traditional sense.  It isn't doubled, it isn't stereo, there's not a lot of low or top end.  It's pretty much the pure sound of a strat into a Plexi.

Hope that helps!

I think Cliffs of Dover is a mono signal with a little stereo reverb added in post.  By comparison, Zap is probably an amp + room mic plus some reverb and delay and other stuff added in post, but doesn't really sound "right" to me.

Use a mono 57 or 421, back it away from the amp until it achieves the same effect you want with the room mic.  Realize that as you push the mic away from the amp you are doing the same thing you'd be doing by mixing in a room mic - only everything is very much in-phase and therefore more focused.  Then add a little stereo reverb in post.

If you want room mics, try this:

1. Get a good, close mic sound with a 57 or 421.  Something that really captures the amp.

2. Get a stereo room mic sound going with a pair of mics.  If you're in a big room push them pretty far away from the amp - at least 15', or, place them right against the wall FACING the wall as close as you can get them without touching.  This is an old "PZM" trick.

3. Record on separate tracks - a track of the amp, and a stereo track of the room

4. Experiment with delaying the room track a little, either push it back in time with your editor or use a very short delay

5. Experiment with using room reverb, VERY short reverb time, perhaps with a little pre-delay (30-50 ms) on the room track.

6. Keep the amp track totally dry (except EQ and compression if needed).

7. If you have "fizz" on the amp mic, I think you have too much preamp push, and / or move your 57 off- axis to the speaker.  Don't move it too far away from the amp.  Start with it right on the amp and move it back just a little.

Realize, though, that your complexity goes up exponentially as you add all these different mics and placements.  I like to KISS.